Empire State Building Shooting

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Grantness
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Empire State Building Shooting

Post by Grantness » 24 Aug 2012, 14:24

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/25/nyreg ... oting.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

11 shot outside Empire State Building

Shooter shot one guy; its starting to look like the police are responsible for the rest...

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Re: Empire State Building Shooting

Post by blueorison » 24 Aug 2012, 14:36

Yeah I read that, and it really is starting to look like that.

If that is the story, that is freakin out-of-this-world unacceptable. I don't care if I wasn't there and didn't see what happened in this one case; there is no damage control here. I can't even express the amount of disappointment that I have towards those SHOOTERS that SHOT innocent bystanders.

Obviously this isn't directed at LEO, those shooters just happened to be LEO. Just as if I were to speak about a Thai person, doesn't mean that my intent is to insult all Thai people because he happens to be Thai.

I'm pretty disgusted. Whatever happened, whatever REASONS or EXCUSES, it doesn't matter. Unacceptable.

You wouldn't let an untrained driver drive your car; a dangerous weapon. Obviously the firearm portion of the test for many departments is rudimentary, at best, and this is the end-result of such negligence in training and preparation.

I thought about whether to post my personal opinion of this or not, and decided to; I hope whoever reading this understands where I'm coming from.
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Re: Empire State Building Shooting

Post by jgreenberg01 » 24 Aug 2012, 15:15

What will be interesting is how Hizzoner Mayor Buttburg will spin his own cops shooting innocent bystanders into his war on "illegal guns".

I knew a bunch-o-cops when I lived in NY - most of them shot their weapons twice a year... to qualify. IMHO, these guys and gals with badges who are allowed to carry guns, especially in a place where law-abiding citizens can't legally protect themselves, should be required to shoot at least weekly. If it does turn out that all but one of the shooting victims were shot by the cops... it's an absolute disgrace to NY and especially Mayor Underwearstainburg.
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fzr confused
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Re: Empire State Building Shooting

Post by fzr confused » 24 Aug 2012, 15:25

i agree with you blue, this is unacceptable. they were 8 feet apart and still needed to first off fire that many rounds, second that little control? i understand that when the bad guy pulled his gun they prob freaked out and crapped themselves, but still it was only 8 feet.

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Re: Empire State Building Shooting

Post by eagleshotz » 24 Aug 2012, 15:39

This Just in...The NYPD has issued warrants for the suspected owners of 4 Big Gulps found at the scene...

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Rapier1772
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Re: Empire State Building Shooting

Post by Rapier1772 » 24 Aug 2012, 15:41

Never happened - the level of gun control in NYC would never allow it.

Yeah, that's a lot of collateral damage for cops to be inflicting but I am wondering how many people were shot simply because they were stupid :skep: :ponder:
If there is gunfire, get down or get behind cover! Don't just stand there looking at what is happening, maybe hoping to video it for farcebook.
For instance:
Maureen Minuche, 45, said she was in a deli not far from the initial shooting scene buying breakfast when she heard people screaming. She said she pushed through a crowd of people standing around a body. “He was shot in the face, probably in the face, because he was disfigured,” she said.
OOOO, gunfire! Let's go see what's happening! :facepalm: I've seen it with fist fights (real) & sword fights (sparring). Violence starts & a crowd gathers. Outsiders will even close in to the point where they put themselves in danger & they don't even think about it.

I am willing to spread some of the blame IF that's what happened (which I'd be willing to bet is the case).


eagleshotz wrote:This Just in...The NYPD has issued warrants for the suspected owners of 4 Big Gulps found at the scene...
I'll admit it, that was funny :laugh:
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Re: Empire State Building Shooting

Post by ShockedNKansas » 24 Aug 2012, 16:08

It's common knowledge that the statistical average for police bullets that actually find their target is around 30%. So of the thousands of bullets leaving LEOs' guns every year, 2/3rds of them are not going where the LEO originally intended. That leads a rational person to make the following conclusion: if you see an officer with his gun out and you are not the one he is aiming at.. run, run, run and see shelter. If all these people shot were just standing around gawking, I'm glad they got shot. I absolutely HATE people that slow wayyyy down in traffic so they can get a good look at a traffic accident.

On another note; I don't care how much you practice... when you are being fired at, it is very difficult to maintain composure as you are firing back. Perhaps the elite range ninjas/competitive shooters/killers of paper targets would never miss in the face of a madman sending bullets their way, but for the average person, you are just trying to survive.

One thing that made me relieved when reading about this shooting is that at least the shooter had a motive this time. It's a sad day when one finds positives in a shooting, but that is the day and age we live in... all these reports about shooters killing people randomly is causing me to lose faith in humanity.

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Re: Empire State Building Shooting

Post by blueorison » 24 Aug 2012, 16:14

Everything is about perspective, isn't it?

Till you are the one shot. Or your family.


So what does NY have to say about Good Samaritan laws?
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Stop relying on others to do the work for you.
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Re: Empire State Building Shooting

Post by fzr confused » 24 Aug 2012, 16:17

the comment about the average person i agree with. but these were "trained" individuals that are held to a higher standard.

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Re: Empire State Building Shooting

Post by Sniperjoe » 24 Aug 2012, 16:28

Wow, this happened not far from where I work, I hope no one I know is hurt.

I heard only 1 was shot....11!...wtf.

And yes it is true...the police are only required to qualify 2 times a year...and their glock are some of the most innacurate handguns ive ever seen....which is due to a REDICULOUS 10+ pound trigger!! I fired one at a range here and my fingers were killing me after the third shot..

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Re: Empire State Building Shooting

Post by Esteves » 24 Aug 2012, 16:35

They're safer that way. Because, like, guns are dangerous and stuff and someone could get hurt if the trigger is too light.
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Re: Empire State Building Shooting

Post by ShockedNKansas » 24 Aug 2012, 17:28

fzr confused wrote:the comment about the average person i agree with. but these were "trained" individuals that are held to a higher standard.
Yes, they do receive some "training" or instruction, but in my opinion, your typical "cop" is a very average individual -- sometimes below average in conditioning. They are certainly held to a higher standard, but statistics don't lie. These boys aren't Navy Seals. Cops that work extremely dense areas should seriously hesitate in firing their weapons. Three officers firing tasers at this fellow would have ended the battle very quickly. I know a local highway patrol who always chooses to use his taser over his pistol. He's a really good dude. Not a hint of blood lust in him. I can't say the same for some other cops I have talked to...

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Re: Empire State Building Shooting

Post by Cwc » 24 Aug 2012, 18:58

8 feet, 17 shots fired and only 7 on target.

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Re: Empire State Building Shooting

Post by apvbguy » 25 Aug 2012, 08:42

Rapier1772 wrote:Never happened - the level of gun control in NYC would never allow it.

Yeah, that's a lot of collateral damage for cops to be inflicting but I am wondering how many people were shot simply because they were stupid :skep: :ponder:
If there is gunfire, get down or get behind cover! Don't just stand there looking at what is happening, maybe hoping to video it for farcebook.
For instance:
Maureen Minuche, 45, said she was in a deli not far from the initial shooting scene buying breakfast when she heard people screaming. She said she pushed through a crowd of people standing around a body. “He was shot in the face, probably in the face, because he was disfigured,” she said.
OOOO, gunfire! Let's go see what's happening! :facepalm: I've seen it with fist fights (real) & sword fights (sparring). Violence starts & a crowd gathers. Outsiders will even close in to the point where they put themselves in danger & they don't even think about it.

I am willing to spread some of the blame IF that's what happened (which I'd be willing to bet is the case).


eagleshotz wrote:This Just in...The NYPD has issued warrants for the suspected owners of 4 Big Gulps found at the scene...
I'll admit it, that was funny :laugh:
you must be kidding! blaming the victims?? give me a break! there is a video of the actual shooting out there and after viewing it many times it is my opinion that one cop never even drew his weapon and he froze like a dear in headlights, the other cop did pretty good, he got moving, he got his shots off and he actually hit his target.
this is not to be insulting but if you knew anything about the NYPD they are not like many other agencies, their cops are poorly trained with their weapons, in fact if a cop tries to get better trained, or gets "into" guns he is in trouble, he gets labeled as gun nut! the NYPD was one of the last agencies to go to hi cap weapons. and going back to training, you'll notice that many of their high profile shootings were of the spray and pray type.
bottom line, don't even think of trying to blame the vics, the problem with the NYPD is their poor firearms training for patrol officers.

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Re: Empire State Building Shooting

Post by Grantness » 25 Aug 2012, 09:57

ShockedNKansas wrote: If all these people shot were just standing around gawking, I'm glad they got shot. I absolutely HATE people that slow wayyyy down in traffic so they can get a good look at a traffic accident.
Really Shocked? :facepalm:

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Re: Empire State Building Shooting

Post by jgreenberg01 » 25 Aug 2012, 10:29

Grantness wrote:
ShockedNKansas wrote: If all these people shot were just standing around gawking, I'm glad they got shot. I absolutely HATE people that slow wayyyy down in traffic so they can get a good look at a traffic accident.
Really Shocked? :facepalm:
Did you expect something else from someone who hoped for a negligent discharge by people mishandling guns at a range?
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Re: Empire State Building Shooting

Post by jgreenberg01 » 25 Aug 2012, 10:35

Aaannnddd, here's the headline:
NYPD: 9 shooting bystander victims hit by police gunfire
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/25/ny ... e-gunfire/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Empire State Building Shooting

Post by f3rr37 » 25 Aug 2012, 10:37

That is just crazy... (both SnK's comment and the 9 bystanders)

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Re: Empire State Building Shooting

Post by Grantness » 25 Aug 2012, 10:45

They're saying three bystanders were shot outright and the rest (six) were hit by "fragments of some sort"...which could mean either ricochets or over-penetration....or as they are now claiming: shards from planters that were hit.

Police release surveilance: http://abcnews.go.com/US/empire-state-b ... DkdsaPheKw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Empire State Building Shooting

Post by Rapier1772 » 25 Aug 2012, 10:59

apvbguy- I give credit where it is due. Note that I said "IF that is what happened" - At the time of that post, I had not seen any video to indicate one way or the other (there wasn't a link to one when I looked the first time). You're right, I don't know many NYPD - just 2 and I have respect for both of them. However, I have met more than a few New Yorkers and they are more ~50/50. That is why I was unwilling to give the police the full brunt of the blame without having been there.

Now I've seen a video. I see people running but not getting down - they're civvies so it's understandable. I also see one police officer backing right into the line of fire of the other, forcing the officer behind to abandon any chance of cover to continue firing at the suspect.

According to another article http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/25/justice/n ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - while all 9 were wounded by police gunfire, 6 were only hit by fragments but 3 people were actually shot. I've been hit with fragments, I can't really blame the cops or the civvies for that. That is just wrong place, wrong time. They (fragments) are annoying & possibly dangerous but completely random.
apvbguy wrote:it is my opinion that one cop never even drew his weapon and he froze like a dear in headlights
The videos I've seen showed both cops firing, although one did seem to hesitate longer. In addition, every article I've seen reported that both officers fired - one fired 9 rounds, the other fired 7.


Who here can say that they could draw & fire on a crowded street, take out a BG that was also returning fire & not hit any bystanders (including over-pentetration shots)? With innocent people around, it is never a good situation and it's true the police could use more training (but who couldn't?) but until gunman give up without incident, collateral damage is an unfortunate reality.

Grantness wrote:
ShockedNKansas wrote:If all these people shot were just standing around gawking, I'm glad they got shot. I absolutely HATE people that slow wayyyy down in traffic so they can get a good look at a traffic accident.
Really Shocked? :facepalm:
Wow, I must have skimmed over that... I saw (& agree with) the traffic bit but that first part... WTF?
I hate stupid behavior & would frequently like to slap gawkers up side the head but GLAD they got shot for it? No. Never.
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